How come worker co-ops serve a blueprint for a 21st socialist economy?

How come worker co-ops serve a blueprint for a 21st socialist economy when we know that in the past many of them have degenerated (like Israeli agricultural coops 'Kibbutz' or firms in US plywood industry) as their members either sold their shares in the open market or hired workers that were non-members and hence they themselves turned into capitalists thereby making a coop revert back to a conventional firm?

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  • S T
    commented 2017-02-23 03:16:56 -0500
    To see how the employer-employee relationship might be thought about from a legal perspective, see here:
  • Hassan Mujtaba
    commented 2017-02-23 03:00:33 -0500
    Wasalam Chris, yeah you are right, what I meant by OFFICIAL was ‘dejure’, because of course in this day and age one cannot LEGALLY make another person slave, we’ve got conventions of UN for that…
    Au revoir! my friend :)
  • Christopher Kavanaugh
    commented 2017-02-22 22:24:05 -0500
    Salaam Hassan, We may have a misunderstanding of language here. OFFICIAL is verbally sidestepping what is defacto. Legitimate is even more loaded. Remember, everything the nazis did was LEGAL under their laws. French was once the language of diplomacy because of it’s precision. English in it’s many dialects and patois is itself an artifact of globalization and capitalism. I need to brush up on my french.
  • Christopher Kavanaugh
    commented 2017-02-22 22:14:57 -0500
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  • Hassan Mujtaba
    commented 2017-02-22 11:42:48 -0500
    @christopher I was talking about slavery or serfdom existing as OFFICIAL or legitimate social systems. Of course, there are shades of slavery within the capitalist system, wage labor being one as you mentioned it. Besides, I live in Pakistan and in the southern part of my country, feudals and serfs still exist as they did in medieval times in Europe.
  • Christopher Kavanaugh
    commented 2017-02-22 10:22:47 -0500
    Anyone who thinks slavery and serfdom a relic of the past needs to look at that plate of southeast asian seafood, plastic shirt made in Haiti or central american farmers growing bananas. There is a conceit, last publicaly expressed by POTUS Obamma, and I paraphrase
    " some people are on the wrong side of history’ as if there is a natural progression of values
    like those cute evolutionary drawings of human evolution. I could add another hominid to the right of that good looking, military postured fella with a complex tool: A figure again bent over from back breaking work with a dull look from toxic pollution and no education.
    U.S. Corporations were once artificial constructs granted by and for the people. Once we kill that now capitalist erectus HUMAN falsehood a similar restraint needs to be emplaced for co opts.
  • Hassan Mujtaba
    commented 2017-02-22 08:21:25 -0500
    @stathi Triadis
    Yes Stathi I know many of them didn’t, in fact some of them are big success stories in modern day labor economics, but I am asking from a political point of view. The whole point of our leftist struggle is to create a sustainable economy which cannot be reversed or degenerate back to earlier modes of production. For example, in the modern day capitalist economy it is absolutely impossible to revert back to slavery or feudalism.

    In this regard worker cooperatives do indeed represent a QUANTITATIVE change over the traditional top-down capitalist firms but STILL they are operating within the larger market economy. So what I am asking is that how can we create a worker co-op sector/economy that represents BOTH a quantitative as well as qualitative change over the previous systems and that won’t just degenerate back into earlier forms?

    Anyways thanks for the useful links that you shared.

    Best Regards,
    Hassan Mujtaba
  • S T
    commented 2017-02-22 03:44:02 -0500
    Plenty have not degenerated and are doing fine:

    But I agree that these are big issues. I believe they can be avoided perhaps by altering the founding constitution or ‘rules’ of a co-op. For an excellent write up on these issues and some possible solutions see here:
  • Hassan Mujtaba
    published this page in Ask Prof. Wolff 2017-02-21 16:20:30 -0500